People-Based Marketing with Trevor Stooke

At the heart of every product, every interaction, every sale is a person, are people, and as humans, we are wired to connect with others.  Today we talk to Trevor Stooke from Agenda Marketing about people-based marketing, people-based design and what it means for authenticity and brand storytelling.

Connect with Trevor: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevorstooke/

Connect with Miranda: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mirandaoconnor-mba/

Learn more about The Art of Storytelling: https://www.theartofstorytelling.com/

Transcript

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We like to look at sort of the landscape and determine what are the best fits for the audience and for the company expressing it. So it it can go anywhere. So websites are huge for sure. Social is huge. Email marketing is is also another huge touchpoint, but it also extends beyond kind of the digital realm, which is where we've really fallen in a lot of what we do in marketing these days. But it really can come down to just how does that business card look. Welcome to Storytelling for Engagement, the podcast where we talk about all things creative and content related to make your story unforgettable. I’m your host, Miranda O’Connor from The Art of Storytelling, and I’m excited to start this storytelling journey with you. Today I have Trevor Stooke from Agenda Marketing with us, and he is going to talk to us about people based marketing. So, Trevor, thank you for being on this podcast. First of all, I'd like you to just give us a little brief introduction to you and your business. How did you get started in this industry? Well, first off, let me say hello, Miranda. Nice to be with you. And hello to everyone listening. Yeah, I've been in the business for about 25 years. I came out of corporate. I had been working with some various large corporations and a new start up initiatives through those large corporations and really had a passion for it until the corporate culture sort of warming out. And what I realized was I loved the work I was doing and I loved the people I was working with, just not some of the structures I was working within. So I was happy to get out on my own. And I've been out for about 18 years working, helping great clients all across North America. That's great. So the first thing that attracted me to to you and to find out more about your business is, you know, your business card says people based marketing. And I thought that was interesting and a bit different. You know, for us in The Art of Storytelling, we also like, we really focus on people and humans and the human story. So why don't you tell us, like, what does that mean to you? People based marketing? Yeah, it's kind of an innovative way to think, and in this day and age it seems to be somewhat unique, which I find surprising. So the premise of people based marketing and ultimately people based design, where we really specialize, is that at the heart of every product, every interaction, every sale is a person, are people, and as humans, we are wired to connect with others. And in sales, people buy from people and entities that they know, like and trust. So people based design and marketing is all about putting users into the spotlight. We're talking about understanding what they need, what they like, and making sure that their experiences are top notch as best we can throughout the whole design process. Okay, that's great. So what's what really got you into designing? Like, do you mean, like, just graphic design? Is that what you were interested in many years ago? How did you get into that? Yeah, it. I came through a political science background and I was fascinated by the design of kind of political systems and labor systems and how people sort of function together. And after graduating with with those degrees, I found my way into the film and television industries and also enjoyed the processes of putting production together. I didn't know if you knew that Miranda or not, but yeah, we share that as a background and, and, but what I found I loved most and I just had this inclination for and it was also right on the cusp of a new innovation and a new way to do it was the design, the design of, you know, the show titles in the way that we could create the way shows looked from a graphic design program. And it was also at the time that websites were coming up and becoming something very relevant from, from an old based sort of communication forum to a brand new Caspi visual interface, you know, to present information. So the design is where I really connected. But being a people person, I always understood that there was another level of, of, of communicating that visuals and good design could complement, but always must remember that there are people looking at this and interacting with it at the end of the day. Yeah, of course. So how do you approach keeping people at the center of the design process so when you're creating a brand identity and why is that really crucial for, you know, receiving referrals in marketing? First and foremost, you have to get to know your audience. So you have to understand your audience from the inside out as best you can. And we help clients, companies do digging and market research for them to gain insights. We also use things like customer interviews and try and figure out what makes the audience tick. And depending on the budget and depending on sort of how much scope we have at the beginning, we really like to build a persona identity sense from basic to detailed, to understand again, who are the slices of the audience that we want to communicate to. And they really help keep us focused through the design process as to who we're talking to and how best to approach them. And we try and keep that conversation going through embracing feedback loops, through design. We're ready to listen to what potential users, the stakeholders and even our team has to say through the process. It's really an evolutionary process and it's not a one time thing. It really is a relationship or a dance or a friendship. It keeps keeps evolving as we learn and as we we improve. Right, okay. So so is what you're saying that you, you test out the design on customers and different stakeholders like that? How how does that look like? Can you give us an example of like, do you go to them with several different designs and ask for feedback? It's interesting that you bring up several different designs, so we really try and focus our designs and minimize choice. Choice seems to be more distracting than clarifying. So we really try and refine our ideas down into the best and the basics and present from there, because it gives people a much clearer sense of what they like and what they don't like. And choice, again, presents a lot of confusion. But we do. We engage stakeholders where we can. We certainly if you think about design and sort of corporate branding and the idea of marketing as what we do, we are creating outfits for the team, the company to sort of wear and we have to create a connection to the audience, of course. But the company, the salespeople, the the people who are front line need to wear that outfit and feel authentic in that. So really, if they feel comfortable with it, it's a good step forward to how they're going to feel when they represent it to their audience. And we know that people buy from people that they know like and trust, and we really try and keep that. It's for that first and foremost of what we do in that. If the people selling believe in what they're selling, if the people that are offering their services feel good about what they're offering through whatever the touchpoints are and whatever the interactions are, we know that the audience will connect at that level and we work really hard to try and make sure that there's a good fit from both sides. Okay, that's interesting. I hadn't considered that you were also looking at people inside the organization and how they feel about the design. Yeah, that's really interesting. So what are the main design tactics that you do like? Is it websites? Is it brochures? Is it logos? Like what? What are you designing? It's all of it. It really is. Every every company has a different set of communication avenues that they can utilize. We try and find out where the audience is best served. We really love the idea of people based marketing, of course, but people. People to people. So what are the ways that people are looking for the product or expressing their desire for a solution to the problem? And what are the ways that the company is most comfortable in sort of being out into the public to let people know that their products are there? So it isn't a one size fits all. I know a lot of companies, marketing companies come at their solutions from a set of established solutions, sweet, sweet spots for them, different but different tactics, different softwares, sign ups, whatever they might have. We like to look at sort of the landscape and determine what are the best fits for the audience and for the company expressing it. So it it can go anywhere. So websites are huge for sure. Social is huge. Email marketing is is also another huge touchpoint, but it also extends beyond kind of the digital realm, which is where we've really fallen in a lot of what we do in marketing these days. But it really can come down to just how does that business card look. You mentioned when you met me that that the business card sort of caught your eye. It's it's a tangible, tactile element that we give and it becomes sort of an extension of us when we're out and about. And as much as, you know, the QR code and the digital business card is sort of the hip happening thing, we still like to receive something. We still like to touch something. And in a business card we can be very expressive. So I still think there's a place for print marketing out there and we do a lot of that. It depends where you are. Again, tradeshow design could be in the booth, it could be in in the different takeaways that would happen there in different promotional items. And certainly to complement what you guys do in the video realm as well, that videos still have a huge strong impact. So we help bring great video companies in. We do some some video work, but we know that they're excellent specialists out there that do a much better job of that. But we try and bring the best pieces together to fit in the client need. Okay, nice. And so I was speaking with a different marketing agency this week and they put me on the spot and said, How do you really measure your ROI on these videos that you produce for your customers? And I found that was a very difficult question because they were in kind of the the realm of online marketing, but online advertising paid ads, and they were really just looking at monetary returns. So if they if they have a client and they say, okay, we're going to spend this much money, we're going to do these ads online, digital ads, you're going to get so many new clients or sales. And I thought that, you know, that's not really where everything is. I don't think you have to be able to quantify it an immediate return on investment. So I just wanted to pose that question to you that, you know, when you when you do design or marketing, is it always that you have to find what's the ROI for the client? Is that what the clients even want? Or do they just need you to help them, you know, showcase their brand in a different way? Great question. I and I completely understand where that company is coming from because that's their model or their their value proposition. We take a different tact. And I think, Miranda, you and I sort of share that one, that that what is the quality of experience of marketing and what are the ways to endear a true friendship or relationship? So I find the ROI segment of our industry to be very transactional and everything is driven to a conversion. And I like to think about it more as being a people based company and in developing relationships which I believe develop longer routes. And if we go with the route idea, the farming approach as well, that you plant your seeds and you let them come up organically and you do your best to nurture the garden, but you also let, let things take their course. And I think when you try and force human relationships, it it certainly feels forced. And I think as people and I'm going to speak for myself in sort of my circle, people are tired of being sold. I think people want to create good relationships and feel that there is honesty in the process. And I find a lot of what happens transactional negates that and sort of eliminates it. And while it looks good to a bookkeeper or it looks good to, you know, the CFO or or the bottom line or shareholders and stakeholders, I think there's a sole element that gets lost in in that process. And that's why we really want to pull things back to the human element, trying to create sort of a more of an empathetic and a more honest approach to marketing, creating fits where there are fits, creating solutions to problems that really exist. And again, not just relying on a sale or or ringing the bell to sort of indicate success. And I think, you know, the idea of referral marketing is really based on that, that if people know like and trust you and they buy from you and you can create that sort of relationship, they're going to tell their friends and be evangelical about it to help spread the word on your behalf. And it'll be an honest, sincere spreading of the word. And you can really gain a great community that way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I'm all with you on that. And I'm going to have to keep, you know, that word transactional in mind because it goes against everything that we are doing. And it also goes against everything that, you know, when I go to networking events and, you know, we're all trying to build a network of referrals. We're not we're not there for immediate sales, right? This is not transactional. So I think that's a good way to explain it. And maybe now I have a good come back when I get those those kind of agency questions about, well, you know, if we spend this money on this video, what do we get? Right? Right. And yeah, and you can't quite quantify feelings and you can't quite quantify I had mentioned before about people, you know, what is the internal team feel like when they put on a new logo or there is a brand launch that sort of invigorates an organization? Well, you know, at the end of the day, hopefully there is a transactional sort of number that you can attach to the list of what you've done. Maybe it comes down to employee retention, maybe it comes down to some of these other measurables that aren't directly tied to the bottom line of how many sales did we make. So again, I think there's a much bigger holistic approach that we we should adopt rather than thinking about every sale as as the be all and end all. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And also the sales might not be immediate, right. And when it's relationship building, it's this is a long term game. This is not an immediate overnight success. So we're trying that's right there and I guess it comes down to some of the product that people sell and what we sell. Some are immediate gratification, some are immediate needs, but most and many are. I want to be in a position that if I have that opportunity to solve that problem, I know who to call and I know who to talk to. I know that there is a solution out there or a person that I would like to contact when and if that happens. But you know, a lot of what we are videos, for instance, and branding and marketing, it's about when the time is right. So what we want to do is create an environment for when the time is right. You think of us and then we'll have an honest and good conversation at that point. But not trying to sell you to say, Look, if you're not interested now, forget it. You know, let's move on. I'm going to work to the next person who will buy now. Absolutely. Yeah. And who are your customers? Like, who do you deal with? Is it companies that are doing B to B or B to C or like nonprofits? Like who do you work with? Yeah, we work with all of them actually. So we do a B to C clients by different electronic devices. So we help design the product itself in the packaging and in the messaging to get the word out. We work with educational institutions to help shape new programs and shape solutions to getting the word out for both courses or for new programs or for, you know, subsets of promotional ideas, gathering public feedback or entering contests or whatever else for or for new initiatives. And we deal with B to B for sure with with with companies who have great solutions and need to get the word out, but really build build a community that that, you know, feels honest about buying from them when when the need arises. So we service everybody that. So what challenges do businesses commonly face when they're trying to implement a people centric design approach? Yeah, there there are a lot I would say one of the first major obstacles is leadership. Again, we spoke about sort of the the the CFOs of the world and the the very fiscally responsible CEOs out there who really look at bottom line and dollar in, dollar out and you know how to maximize all that. So I would say culture within a company is an obstacle. And so we do try and talk to the top people to make sure that there is an alignment. And that means, you know, maybe rethinking a mission and values statement within the company to make sure that there is alignment to the idea of people based marketing. And that we are going to make and take extra care in trying to develop the customer experience but also an internal culture that is sort of ready. So there's no need or if you bring a lot of traffic to the door, is the company ready to deal with it or is the company sort of going to represent that influx of business or any interaction in the right way? So it comes down to how do people answer the phone or or, you know, when you’re placed on hold, what are you listening to and how long do you have to be put on hold? So there are lots of obstacles that can come from a cultural point of view. The other one is just understanding who your market is. I think that is a huge one that a lot of people feel that they need to do the shotgun approach and they need to just put the word everywhere. And the reality is if you try and be everywhere, you ultimately end up nowhere. So it's trying to point companies into making decisions as to who best serves their their needs. The other one that that we find in that process is just getting feedback and getting the chance to talk to people. A lot of companies are gated and don't want to sort of let you know any of their dirty secrets or at least their fear that there might be a dirty secret and they don't want to sort of expose themselves to learning. And then let us talk to the people who might be able to give us some great insights. So and or they siloed the parts of the company so that marketing is only in the marketing bucket. You know that that marketing is a standalone unit but doesn't engage with customer service, for instance, or from leadership. So it's it's trying to get a corporate fit. And that's where we find the sweet spot is and where we find we can make the most magic. Yeah. Do you have any success stories that you want to share with us? You know, I think that the success that we have is truly in the solutions that we build, I think is when the company feels a new sense of themselves, a new sense of identity, a new sense of pride from from what now they're offering in the conversations that they're having, they're also in a position that they're listening in a different way than they were before. And rather than selling, they're now doing more of the idea of creating relationship and and listening to what people might need out in the marketplace on how their solutions might directly address and solve those problems. So I would say I think when we bring the people element to the marketing process, I think that in and of itself when it resonates is a huge success and certainly does help the bottom line. So we see lifts in product sales when there is great engagement. But again, it's it's a much bigger success. You know, sales teams are much more engaged. Customer service reps feel much better about what they're doing and the honesty to which they're now talking to their audience much less script based, much more honest based. So I find that to be great success. Yeah. So how long do you typically work with a company when you're doing some kind of marketing or branding? You know, sort of back to that other point of just how engaged is a company and how willing are they able to work with you? We can do things pretty quickly. Certainly the the scope of what we need to do, how many stakeholder interviews we can do, and how much interactions with the company and research we can do is limited with a quick engagement, but we really can service all needs. You know, we're sort of deadline driven. What what is the deadline? What is the need? What what are the, you know, reasonable timelines that we can execute on? And then certainly what are the deliverables that need to be put in place. So we like where we can to compartmentalize the different elements, find out what our priorities, what are the low hanging fruit, what are the quick wins, and then scale out from there. Often it's the website. We want the website up, we need something like that. So how can we support, you know, creating a new cultural idea? How can we create a new way of expressing what the services are and then how can we bring things on that, you know, perhaps in a scalable way. So we have the minimum viable product, the MVP, and then we scale up as we go. And when you're doing the interviews, I'm sure you get some really good gems in those when you're talking to stakeholders. Yes. Do you find that's where you get, you know, those special comments and insight from. Absolutely. You know, companies tend to and rightly, I think, see things from their perspective and see the angles that they see it from. But what is missed is that there is another side to the story. So we all know the adage, right? There's there's there's one side, there's the other side. And then probably the truth is in the middle and we find some of those truth elements in the middle. So where a company can improve, where a company falls short. But there's the other dimension, which is when you talk about yourself, you're bragging. When somebody else talks about it, it's truth. So you can you can identify some of your victories through what other people say and the power of the testimonial, the power of the good video that sort of expresses those ideas through customers or clients mouths is hugely important. And it's much more honest. However, there there is a place for the company in seeing themselves as well. But it needs to be shared to, to all perspectives. And then we aggregate the best, the best and the most valuable insights that we can. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Because the story is always built not just from within the company, but from within all the stakeholders and just the community in general. It’s the opinion that, that they all form together is how we get what the actual story of the company is. And do you find you get like strikingly different ideas or even just like the vocabulary strikingly different from the CEO compared to like maybe a long term employee or someone who's brand new or even a client? Do you find the story and the opinions are totally different? They can be, absolutely. But you know, surprisingly, they can also be consistent, You know, that there really is a culture that's in place where people, when they're on boarded, you know, they've been on board it because they fit a personality profile. They believe in a company culture. There are a lot of lot of great companies out there. So, you know, we're not transforming every company. A lot of companies have gone through the effort of putting in the great work. But sometimes, you know, through these insights, we do realize how how sort of separated the the different stakeholders are and the stage at that point really needs improvement or needs some sort of refinement and way of aligning people to a common cause and to a common goal. You know, we all work, we all have to do something. We find that there really is magic in in the feelings of the people who really enjoy and feel connected with who they work for and what they're doing from a product point of view, but also who they're servicing. And those things can be mutually beneficial and tied together. They don't need to be exclusive to each other. So sometimes a marketing company can come in and ask some great questions and really effect some change in to how companies think we find it. It's a great process because often we're finding things that nobody has thought of. We're able to present it in a new way and there's just a whole new energy, a spark to to what they're doing and why they wake up every day to go to work. And so how much of your work would you say is with the strategy compared to the actual like designing time? Yeah, we've evolved a fair bit. We're really trying to spend more time into the strategy now. You know, the strategy has always been there, but we're spending more time with the with the stakeholder interviews. We're insisting on them. We really want to get a roadmap and a game plan to where we want to design. For many years, we were great order takers. We would listen to what the company needed and we would deliver based on those. But we realized that there was this sort of missing element, this idea that we were putting lipstick on a page and in some cases everything is very crude and crass analogy, but it really was that that we can make things look pretty. But there were flaws and challenges behind the scenes. And what I think a lot of people forget is just how much of a first impression world we live in. But there is also sort of a deeper sense and intuitive sense to people. They know it when they see it, they know it when they feel it, although things might look pretty. When they started interacting with the company or listening to what is being said, the honesty gets lost in it, the sincerity of it, and it really does sort of drive consumers away to look for other solutions. So we felt our design became a lot more relevant when we engaged the idea of the meaning behind the design and the meaning behind the conversations and the design became much more shiny, much more relevant, much more in tune with with the feelings of the company and really engage customers in a better way. In a deeper way. Yeah, that's great. And did you find your customers shifted a bit when you went, you know, when you started to look a little bit deeper into the company or focus more on the strategy, did you find that you had to now have a different type of customer that actually wanted that? Yeah. Great. Great question. Yes, we we did Well, we also found that we wanted to work with certain types of companies more than others. So I agree that with the question that there was a shift, that there was a sense of who we want to connect with, who we feel we can best serve, who we like to be a good partner with, and what companies really don't want, what we offer that they really want, a more transactional based agency or whatever. So it did it shifted on both sides that we found we found better clients and and we felt that our satisfaction came out because we were more discerning about who we wanted to work with. Yeah, that's great. And again, it comes back to transactional versus relationships, right? Yeah, absolutely. Again, relationships aren't easy, you know, they really they need to come organically and you can, you can offer pieces, you might have a great referral program or you might have a great newsletter series or great ads, but every step of the dance and every journey is different needs to be thought of and needs to be consistent. And that is one of the, you know, the human elements is that we look for consistency. We look for these these very subtle cues, these thousands of micro decisions that we're making subconsciously, we need to align or we disconnect from it, or we don't feel the honesty in it. So it's important to get as many of the steps aligned as you can. And then the magic really does happen. It's no different if you think about what you put on for work every day or as you go out and you go to the networking meetings that we met at, you just get a sense as to who you're meeting out there and who is going to potentially be a great fit to continue the conversation and who is really not going to be somebody you want to follow up. And as cold as that is, it is as honest as it is to be human is just to determine who you want to be around and who you don't, who is going to be a friend and who isn't. And companies and sales is exactly the same idea. It really comes down to is there alignment, Is there a feeling of connection? And if there isn't, you know, people move on and find other things. Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. Before we wrap it up, I'm going to ask you another question. How can storytelling be integrated into branding to create more compelling narrative and fosters stronger connections that lead to increased referrals? Yeah, storytelling is so important. You know the story we tell ourselves becomes the truth. The stories that companies need to spend time on developing, to be consistent, to be authentic is probably the most worthwhile exercise. I know that everybody always wants a good business plan, you know, to to sort of set the company a direction. But the story of the company, I think, is equally as important. What is the mission of the company? What is the values of the company? Where were the originations of the company? What were the problems that they want to solve? Who are the people who are involved? All of those need to be expressed through story, and the story then gets amplified by design. And the design sort of creates a new story within it. And if you can align the story with the design, with the marketing tactics and the touch points and the company culture, it's a big ask, but it is doable. You really create a family of of synergy that really connects with people on both sides of the transaction. And when you start a project with a new client, do you like do you always go through like, what is that story of this brand? As best we can. Our onboarding process now is is about a strategy first engagement where we really look to understanding who is it that you're competing against, Who is it that you are from a company culture? Who is it that you're serving out there? Can we learn from those people by asking them and talking to them directly about the insights, their interactions? What what made them want to work with you to begin with? What worked? What has been off putting for you? What are the challenges that you've had with the company? How has the company resolved it or however the salespeople sort of taken the time to make you feel more comfortable? It really sets a huge and valuable stage to then creating the conversations that make for good marketing and the various touchpoints that that support those touchpoints. So or that touch points that we would then use. So yeah, it is so important to start off with that direction. Strategy really leads us to the gold, which allows us to to get the word out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's fabulous. Any last words that you want to give us? I think the last word that I'd like to say is, is just try and be authentic. Find who if you're if you're the owner of a company, find out what makes and fed your passion at the beginning and what kind of a culture you would like. You go out, you know, don't be afraid to go out and start having those conversations with the people who are buying your products and asking them what they truly think. Be honest and open. I think COVID taught us a lot of things, but one of which is just that we want to spend our time with the right people and we want to get out and we want to engage with with companies. We want to engage with people. We want to feel connected with the world again. And, you know, companies and products are extensions of those interactions and do what you can to maximize your connection to that world and look beyond the balance sheet a little bit. You know there there much better values and I think much better opportunities out there than sometimes the black and white numbers suggest. Yes. Yes, absolutely. All right. Well, thank you so much, Trevor, for being with us today. My pleasure. Miranda. Thank you so much for having me and helping me tell that story. You know, I really hope people feel the human connection in what they do and and and find their their best people to to support them in their journey. And I think you'll find you'll wake up in a better frame of mind doing what you do and hopefully finding you love what you do. And that concludes another episode of Storytelling for Engagement. If you found value in today’s episode, don’t forget to like and share, and visit our website at theartofstorytelling.com to learn more about video storytelling content.